redundant information: how annoying is it?

[deborah]

Hey, gang. This is a question both for screenreader users and for non-screenreader users, because the answer will affect both groups.

I'm looking at bug 2083, which deals with redundant information on sticky posts. The core of the problem is this: if you have a sticky entry which always appears at the top of your journal, it gets a special icon (a star) before the name of the post. The star icon has the alt text "[sticky entry]". Additionally, the style system by default prepends "Sticky: " to the subject line of the entry.

It's been pointed out that this provides redundant information to screenreader users or anyone else who is relying on alt text instead of images. The problem is that the subject line text is configurable in the style system (appropriately!), so it can't be guaranteed to stay there.

One option is to remove the alt text from the star icon, but that doesn't work if the user configures their style to remove the text that says "Sticky: " from the subject line.

One option is to remove the default "Sticky: " from the file system, so that the default state of the sticky post is not to say the word. This would remove the redundancy for screenreader users, but I think it would come at a cost. The star icon isn't so obvious or so frequently seen that everybody who sees it will immediately assume "oh! That is a sticky post!" So for users who benefit from images, I think there is a real benefit both to having the icon and the text.

So here is a case where it feel like usability for those who benefit from images is actually in conflict with usability for those who don't. The enhanced usability for the former group causes redundancy for the latter.

Does anyone have any ideas?

ETA: per aveleh's suggestion, I'm adding some journals that use sticky posts so that you can see examples.

• Denise, who left the original style text in place
• Zvi, who changed the default style text

Comments

[aveleh]

Do you mind linking to a few example pages, so that I/others can be lazy about finding those who use sticky posts?

(I'll be looking on a text-only browser to see what scans best for me.)

[deborah]

good idea! I edited the post and added these links:

• Denise, who left the original style text in place
• Zvi, who changed the default style text

[aveleh]

Thanks <3

Okay, my vote is - I definitely want something descriptive there, whether it's one word or a phrase.

[deborah]

Ta! Just to clarify, you mean you want something descriptive as alternative text for the image? Or at least, you want to have something guaranteed to be descriptive?

[aveleh]

Right; exactly! I want something guaranteed to be descriptive, and the alternative text seems like the best solution.

[softestbullet]

Maybe have the image alt text be a definition of the term "sticky"? So screenreader users who haven't removed it would see, "Sticky: this entry stays at the top of the page." Or something. Still redundant, but less so?

[deborah]

that's a thought, although that's providing more information than is available to people seeing the images, which is also often considered not a best practice.

[deborah]

Although see what I said below; WebAim does point out some places where making explicit information available to the screenreader is not a bad idea. *headdesk* Too many options.

[brownbetty]

Shouldn't the alt text be “star” to describe what the image actually shows? I mean, this way, a screen-reader will describe exactly what is there, and if the user changes their text to “Heffalumps!” then both sighted and screen-readers will both get “[star] Heffalumps!”

[deborah]

I was thinking of this as one of those cases that webaim refers to as functional images. Example 6 on that link is much like this one. Instead of saying "arrow" as the alternative text, they suggest saying "next" or "next page". Although note that they point out that in some circumstances the wordier answer, such as that suggested by softestbullet above, might be a better alternative, even though it provides technically more information than that which is visually made explicit to users who see the image. (Although note that they point out that this is a solution "that does not have a clear-cut best answer". Grr argh)

[brownbetty]

In that sense, then, I think the 'meaning' of the star isn't “sticky” so much as it is “attention” or “important.” It's meant to draw attention to the fact that this post is different from the others.

[not_a_sniglet]

The information really doesn't seem that redundant to us, and we're screen reader users...But those are the first sticky posts we ever saw because in our journal generally if we want to make something sticky we just use date out of order and date the post to 2020 or something. Now I have to go look to see how you make posts sticky.

[denise]

The last setting on the display tab of /manage/settings is "ID or URL of entry to make sticky" -- paste the URL of the entry you want to make sticky there, and it will appear topmost on your journal without having to change the date on the entry.

[deborah]

thank you so much!

[kyrielle]

Not a screenreader user here, but a sighted user browsing via internet explorer. And, uh, wow, I learned something today. I've never noticed that star before and it has no meaning for me. Visually, it conveys "sticky" NOT AT ALL. And since I can't see the alt text since I can see the image...I had no idea it had a THING to do with sticky posts. (Seriously, a mini post-it note I would understand. Why are stars supposed to be sticky? What's the link? I ... really do not get it. Like, confounded to the point of being frustrated by the confusion.)

So, if I clicked into those journals, I would immediately recognize denises sticky post as sticky (YAY USING YOUR WORDS) and, um, not even realize there was anything special about zvi's unless I noticed the lack of date showing. Which, well, I wouldn't if I weren't over-analyzing to compare. I might assume it was a sticky because of the topic, tho.

I think allowing complete removal of the text is a usability mess, frankly. I think the picture, and its alt text, and everything is...pointless. If it helps others, great. If the text annoys others, it needs work. But it's garbage pixels with null meaning to me. I never block images that small, so unless Dreamwidth is up but the image somehow failing to serve, the alt text will never appear to me, either.

[denise]

Is there a particular icon in the full list of Silk icons that would better say 'sticky' to you?

dear Denise. I am made of fail.

[deborah]

or

I wish the Post-it note were more Post-it-y, but that's a start. I was also kind of hoping for thumbtack, but when I was thinking about this at home I was definitely going back and forth between Post-it and thumbtack.

(I agree that the star doesn't really indicate sticky to me. It indicates "important", which was brownbetty's takeaway in her comment above.)

Re: dear Denise. I am made of fail.

[sophie]

Either of those look good to me too.